Joss Whedon probably doesn't want to kill Asian people

[seriousfic]

You know, perhaps it's just me, but having seen people saying that Joss Whedon has "well-documented issues with Asian culture" because there were no Asian characters in Firefly, I feel inclined to point out that it's a TV show that lasted 14 episodes and a movie. It's not like Friends, where they spent ten years shooting the shit and Tom Selleck got more screentime than the African people. They were canceled midway through the first season.

Besides which, they spent most of their time dealing with corrupt military/business types, criminals, prostitutes, and psychotic rape-cannibals. So if there had been an Asian character, there's a good chance you'd just be complaining "all the Asians in Firefly are villains or geishas!" I'm just saying, name a random recurring character and then imagine if they were played by an Asian. Would it be a "complimentary" role? Niska? "Fu Manchu wannabe!" Badger? "Scumbag!" Saffron? "Dragon lady!" Hell, you'd get that if one of the main cast were Asian. Jayne? "Oh, the Asian guy is treacherous, thanks Whedon!" Kaylee? "A cute, perky Asian girl? Fuck you, Whedon!"

So please, a little perspective, and let's conclude that while Joss Whedon may be flawed, as is his prerogative as a human being, he doesn't hate Asian people. That's M. Night Shymalan's bit.

ETA: Dichen Lachman as the Wasp? I could live with it. Although after watching her in Dollhouse, I'd buy it if you told me she was playing Captain America. Although then I'd have to start shipping Steve/Tony, because damn, Lachman and Downey? Hotness called, it wants its hot back.

Comments

[alara-r.livejournal.com]

The only people I've ever seen complain about being villains when they are also shown being allies as well are albinos, and given that part of their complaint is that albinism is visual shorthand for "weird, different and possibly super-powerful" as well as "probably evil", they've got a point.

I have never seen Asian people complain about being portrayed as both villains and allies, although I *have* seen them complain about being relegated to villains, sidekick extras, and nameless extras when the logic of the source text suggested they should have been *half or all the characters.* Ditto black people. If the text already exists, and didn't have any of Minority X in it, and the way to get Minority X into the story can solely be as villains and allies, I think people are cool with that... although they object to the fundamental premise that the text was assembled without Minority X in it in the first place, which is not the same thing as bitching about the specific story arc.

[rann.livejournal.com]

The thing is, with such an abortive attempt at the series, we don't know that Joss didn't have some logical reason for there not being as many Asians running around.

Of course that doesn't mean he had one. But it seems a little wrong to presume him guilty until he's proven innocent (not an easy prospect with something like this), when the penalty is being labeled as a "well-documented" racist.

Just for starters, when it says that it was settled by China and the US primarily, does it say that they were settled that way equally? While that might have been the assumption, it doesn't necessarily mean that the settlers were fifty percent North American (or white, for the purposes of the argument, apparently) and fifty percent Chinese. If the settlers were actually a conglomeration a la Weyland-Butani, then the ratios might be off.

It might be that the settling operation was handled by something more akin to Butani-Weyland. The settlers intended for "low" jobs might then primarily be white (laborers, mechanics, security, general "people that work with their hands" stuff), while the people in positions of authority or thought to be "intellectual", such as administrators and teachers and data specialists, might have been Chinese.

Add them most likely being generational ships, if the "mix" was off even slightly in favor of one race, then the ships might have shown up in the System with the visual appearance already shifted towards that race. Add in a few hundred or thousand years, depending on how long the source material says it's been this week, and it would continue to skew even further towards everyone looking primarily like one race even if they had a large genetic diversity in their background.

Had Firefly run longer, it's possible we might have learned that the 'Verse is made up ethnically much like Rome was towards the wane of its power... the people at the very top were often proper ethnic Romans, but you didn't have to go very far down to find those features getting watered down, until towards the bottom they virtually disappeared. Parliament may have been made up primarily of visually ethnic Chinese, or the Alliance top brass. (Of course I guess then you could come back to issues of ethnic villains, but anyway.)

All supposition, obviously, but no moreso than the "right" way to do it above. Genetics and generations have little care for political correctness in the long run, they just do what they do.

[fig-aruna.livejournal.com]

You're doing a hell of a lot of speculation yourself wrt Firefly.

I shall repeat: no one, either in the linked post, nor in this post, has said that Joss hates on Asians. People are merely pointing out the problematic pattern of representating Asian people and culture (i.e. prevalently as stereotypes and/or as culturally appropriated objects for the enhancement of white characters). It's Joss's *track record* that makes this a discussion more than a speculative criticism.

[rann.livejournal.com]

"With regards to". It's not that difficult to type out, if you absolutely have to use such a pointless phrase. At least if you're a bearer of a mighty white penis, like myself.

[fig-aruna.livejournal.com]

MASTER DERAILER! You should really start a dojo or something. :D

[rann.livejournal.com]

It's not a derailing. It's a refusal to bother trying to engage in any sort of meaningful debate, discussion, or argument with you, because I don't think you're capable. I don't think you have the intelligence, comprehension, or intellectual honesty to be worth treating seriously on any level.

And I know it isn't really necessary to distinguish this from my earlier posts, since as noted you don't have the intelligence, comprehension, or intellectual honesty to recognize that I was mocking your perceptions of me in the first place, but I am being completely and utterly serious this time. I honestly think you are too stupid to try and talk to.

Now go away so that I can have a discussion with someone that while I may not agree with, actually seems capable of stringing a point together and responding to the points given.

[fig-aruna.livejournal.com]

I guess you don't know how to use a dictionary?

You're being about as ridiculous as a five-year-old, for serious. I first engaged you in a very polite and civil manner, and even when you started in with the unwarranted namecalling, insults, and dick-swinging (which, I see, is your equivalent of putting your fingers into your ears and going lalala), I have not once returned any insults or attempted to derail the discussion in any way.

So I raise your inexplicable assessment of me as being woefully unintelligent and say that you're acting like a massive baby.

[fig-aruna.livejournal.com]

And I would like for you to point out exactly where you thought I was being intellectually dishonest? Because if you really feel that way, I'm totally fine with clarifying a point.

[alara-r.livejournal.com]

That would have been a good thing to do, and it does help fanfic writers to resolve the problem... but if Joss had really wanted to set that up, then the Tams should have been Asian, because they are privileged rich kids from the rich city of RichPeopleLiveHereiton. So if the privileged rich people of the Core worlds tend to be Asian, it would have made sense for the Tams to also be Asian in order to set that up. Then you wouldn't have run into the "ethnic villain" thing, because yeah, when you run into Alliance top brass or the Parliament top duded, if they're Asian and you don't have any Asians in your group even though you have powerful rich kids who have given up their privilege to run with you, then it looks like the problem is with Asians, but if the Tams are Asian then it just looks like Asian people have privilege in the Firefly verse.

[rann.livejournal.com]

Hm. Well, two thoughts.

First, if the Tams were visually Asian, and they established that dynamic, it might seem odd that they weren't caught more often. Bunch of white/black ruffians... pair of obviously Asian highbreds. They'd never have been able to leave the ship. (Though obviously they already ran into similar problems anyway even in the show's short run, so not much to go on there.)

Second, the Tams might have been a family that was heavily Asian originally, but has lost the visual look through many generations. This actually could have led to some interesting plotlines if it was used instead. (Again, this is just me thinking, not saying "I'm sure Joss was planning this".) Perhaps their parents overcompensate a lot to make up for not "looking" Chinese, constantly wearing nothing but Chinese clothing, decorating the living quarters purely in Chinese style, speaking in Chinese almost to the exclusion of English. Sort of a "We are of the aristocracy! Honest, look!" kind of thing.

(Of course, while this would make perfect sense in-series, it would probably only worsen the view some have of it being appropriation or whatnot.)

Sort of the same way Roman soldiers made sure to wear their helmets with Roman-looking face-masks during parades, to hide little things like Jewish noses and dark skin. Appearance being seen as everything, even if it was an open secret to everyone just how thin the appearances were.

Again all supposition and spinning fancies, but then both sides ultimately do so to some extent. Even what we got of Firefly was not the way Whedon wanted to do it, essentially working under the gun the entire time. Ultimately why and how we got what we got are things only he knows, as are the situations that he made those decisions under.