This only makes sense if you're a comics fan

[seriousfic]

Why is it that whenever people talk about a third Batman movie, they insist on "realistic" villains like Black Mask or Hush? I mean, really? Black Mask?

This is a syndrome unique to comics fans, but knowing what you do about villains, you want supervillains that've paid their dues (and don't suck). So if Spider-Man 4 came out and the villain was Morlun, I wouldn't care if it were Daniel Day-Lewis in an Oscar-winning performance as Morlun... I'd still be thinking I was cheated out of a great Electro movie (of course, this is all conjecture because, as we all know, it's impossible to write a Morlun story that doesn't suck. Zing).

Black Mask is such a lame-duck villain that DC had to give him the gimmick of torturing people to try to get people to take him seriously. They had him kill a Robin and he still only got X-Pac Heat. He's just such a douche that you don't want to read about him, even if it's in the context of Batman rearranging his face. The Joker is entertaining. Ra's al Ghul is classy. Catwoman's sexy. Black Mask is just a d-bag.

Listen, mother-humps, if you want a businessman rival or a twisted reflection of Bruce or someone "realistic" enough for the Nolanverse, there's this dude named the Penguin? He's a fat guy who likes to wear a tuxedo, is that realistic enough for you? And anyone who wants Hush to be the primary villain of a blockbuster Batman movie does not even deserve a rejoinder. Has King Tut had a movie yet? No? Sorry, Hush, back of the line.

Me, I'm up for some mildly multiple villain shenanigans. Harley Quinn is pulling copycat crimes (and, unbeknownst to everyone, the Joker is pulling her strings from Arkham) and Edward Nigma, famous/desperate PI comes to Gotham to suss out who the Batman is. As he becomes more and more obsessed with Batman, he creates a criminal alter-ego to draw the Bat out. The Riddler is called that because the only clues he leaves are just that... clues, i.e. riddles, that he leaves (Eddie himself can wear a dark green bowler hat and suit, fitting his socially awkward mien).

ETA: I see them and crime boss/legitimate politician Penguin as all working at cross-ends with each other. Riddler slowly descending into insanity and playing sides against each other while Penguin tries to stay on top and Batman tries to protect the city and Harley is trying to blow stuff up. Think of it as similar to the Gordon-Harvey-Batman triangle in TDK, with Penguin both employing Edward Nygma and leaking information to Batman to try to keep the Riddler in his place. Then Riddler fully takes over the empire and makes Harley into his henchwoman.

I see the Riddler as someone with a psychological compulsion to impose order on chaos, so as Joker is the ultimate nihilist, Riddler ends up being the ultimate fascist. He's going to bring order to Gotham, but by running the crime families efficiently. So there's the temptation for Batman to compromise with him on an acceptable level of crime and have a normal life, because if Batman takes him down, there'll be a power vacuum and a mob war.

Plus, with the Penguin ousted, he's turned state's evidence and is going to testify, completely destroying the Gotham Mob. So Riddler, with Harley and all of Penguin's foot soldiers, invades the GCPD headquarters and takes it hostage. When Batman rejects his offer, he decides to kill all the good cops and put cronies in their place to keep things running smoothly, starting with Gordon.

So now you have this huge climax of Batman committing himself to fighting the never-ending battle and trying to stop Harley and Riddler from killing everyone, with the Penguin running around just for good measure. Now that would top TDK. Because, really, who doesn't like a hero who will never compromise with evil?

ETA2: Plus, Riddler could suss out the Harvey Dent cover-up and play with that. Pants-shittening all around!

ETA3: The real problem is that, when you get right down to it, most supervillains just want to steal a lot of shit and while that's fine for one episode in a serialistic work, an entire movie built upon it won't work because the stakes aren't high enough. So Lex Luthor stole a bunch of money, so what? Insurance'll cover it. So either the villain has to make it personal (ala most of the Spider-Man series), or he has to be crazy enough to have a doomsday plan to foil (ala the Nolanverse), or you have to awkwardly graft a doomsday plan onto a villain (the Schumacher Batman films). And with Joker and Ra's Al Ghul exhausted, there aren't that many villains who can carry an entire movie without being reimagined.

ETA4: Oh, and Michael Emerson as the Riddler?

Comments

[milleniumrex.livejournal.com]

I just want a live-action Phantasm. Creepy design, and a great villain to boot.

Harley would be pretty cool, as would a Riddler who's basically an evil version of L from Death Note.

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

I think Huntress would fill the same archetype and be more interesting, since she could fall into being either hero or villain. I liked the idea someone had of Talia al Ghul being the Phantasm, although it's a little fan-wanky.

[mcity.livejournal.com]

Black Mask's a lot cooler in The Batman. (Stop laughing!) He's just a practical, somewhat Genre Savvy mobster who wants the be crime boss of Gotham.

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

And the Penguin could do that, only cooler. Like, Bob Hoskins with a sword-umbrella cooler.

[mcity.livejournal.com]

...go on.

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

No flamethrowers or guns, I'd just like a scene where he's meeting with all his capos, an assassin tries to kill him, and the Penguin calmly beats him to death with the lead pipe built into his umbrella and then carries on, business as usual. Plus, he's someone who can marshal the people of Gotham against Batman as a legitimate businessman/politician while sending the Mob against him as the Penguin.

In fact, I'd say Penguin, Riddler, and Harley Quinn as the Dragon would be great for a third movie, if a little crowded. But given that the first movie juggled Scarecrow and Ra's, and the second movie had both the Joker and Two-Face, I think three villains of varying importance could be doable. Harley would basically be a glorified cameo/plot point, so in a future movie we could have her and a recast Joker as the villains.

[mcity.livejournal.com]

Just go with Riddler and Penguin, I think. Remember what happened to the third Spidey movie when they tried three bad guys? Does the phrase "Wicked cool!" ring any bells?

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

Yes, but Harley Quinn can go toe-to-toe with Batman, while Penguin and Riddler are more schemers. Plus, I see them as all working at cross-ends with each other. Riddler slowly descending into insanity and playing sides against each other while Penguin tries to stay on top and Batman tries to protect the city and Harley is trying to blow stuff up. Think of it as similar to the Gordon-Harvey-Batman triangle in TDK, with Penguin both employing Riddler and leaking information to Batman to try to keep the upstart in his place. Then, when Riddler fully takes over the empire and makes Harley into his henchwoman, we only have a bad guy and his heavy.

Although Riddler taking over Penguin's crime family smirks a little of the Joker's rise to power. It's a work-in-progress.

[mcity.livejournal.com]

Okay. That could work.

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

And I see the Riddler as someone with a psychological compulsion to impose order on chaos, so as Joker is the ultimate nihilist, Riddler ends up being the ultimate fascist. He's going to bring order to Gotham, but by running the crime families efficiently. So there's the temptation for Batman to compromise with him and have a normal life, because if Batman takes him down, there'll be a power vacuum and a mob war.

Plus, with the Penguin ousted, he's turned state's evidence is going to testify, completely destroying the Gotham Mob. So Riddler, with Harley in tow and all of Penguin's foot soldiers, invades the GCPD headquarters and takes it hostage. He's going to kill all the good cops and put cronies in their place to keep things running smoothly, starting with Gordon.

So now you have this huge climax of Batman committing himself to fighting the never-ending battle and trying to stop Harley and Riddler from killing everyone and the Penguin running around just for good measure, and using the Batwing to attack. Now that would top TDK. Because, really, who doesn't like a hero who will never compromise with evil?

[mcity.livejournal.com]

:D

[lejo.livejournal.com]

And why aren't you a studio executive again?

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

On the night before the test, I hung out with this girl from Chicago and we just, you know, talked, like, all night, man.

[cissie-king.livejournal.com]

Suggestion:

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

Why not recast Ledger while you're at it? You don't mess with definitive portrayals.

[cissie-king.livejournal.com]

It's Vincent Price! He can probably come back to life on command.

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

Yes, because he... 'died'...

MUAHAHAHAHAHA!

[liliaeth]

I think they really really need to focus on a female villain in the next movie. For a big part because so far they've so clearly ignored the canon female characters so far.

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

I think Harley Quinn would be the flashiest villain of the three. Beyond that, Barbara Gordon would be a good addition to the cast, as Gordon's college-aged daughter who's back in Gotham to join the police force. She and Riddler could have scenes together discussing Batman's identity.

[jlbarnett.livejournal.com]

Nolan is supposedly against sidekicks. He's so anti other superheroes he apparently stripped the Zorro inspiration from Batman's backstory.

I dislike that cause it makes him feel more crazy to me if this superhero thing is so unthought of in this verse

[cissie-king.livejournal.com]

> He's so anti other superheroes he apparently stripped the Zorro inspiration from Batman's backstory.

Are you sure that's the reason?

Anyway, I didn't like it. They traded Zorro for Die Fledermaus? Who gets inspired to fight crime with that?

"Yes, father, I shall become Pavarotti!"

[jlbarnett.livejournal.com]

He said something along the lines of it makes Batman more unique.

I think what he wants basically is for everything about becoming Batman to be internal for Bruce.

And I'm not sure if he's anti other supers outside of the Nolanverse, but I think he's pretty much wants Batman as the only superhero in his universe.

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

That's nothing new. Batman writers have been doing that for decades (you'll notice when Bruce or Barbara breaks a spine, no one suggests going to Wonder Woman for her purple healing ray or getting cybernetic enhancements like Cyborg). Once you've got Superman in Batman's court, worrying about Joker is a bit daft.

[megca86.livejournal.com]

I'm with you, I think Penguin would be a great choice, and he fits into the Nolanverse--at the end of TDK, almost all the mob bosses are dead. So someone steps in to start pulling the strings of the entire Gotham Underworld. I don't see what's so 'unrealistic' about that in a world where Batman can literally fly....

The problem with wanting all your villains to STAY dead at the end of every movie is that you, um, go through them pretty damn fast. Especially when you use two per movie. (Ledger's death and the fact that they can't really recast him doesn't help.)

[cissie-king.livejournal.com]

They can recast him! He wasn't the first guy to play Joker and he wasn't even the first guy who did a good job there; Nicholson was nominated for a Golden Globe for it.

Just get an actor who can keep the bar up and you are ready to go.

[megca86.livejournal.com]

I think the need at least a movie to recast him (by which I mean the earliest the Joker could pop up again would be the fourth movie). The emotions surrounding Ledger's death are so charged that I think to recast the Joker for the third movie would cause a huge hoopla that the studio probably doesn't want. (Now, whether that would prevent the wankers from seeing the movie is a different question.)

He did, you have to admit, set the bar pretty high for the Joker.

[disturbed-muse.livejournal.com]

Aces high on Penguin, Riddler and Harley. Catwoman stays, because she's awesomely classy. And hot. (Just, please, no Angelina Jolie.)

Maybe getting into Ra's backstory would take an entire movie, but I have an affinity for him and his spawn. Cool guy.

With Joker gone for an indefinite time (read: until the public at large isn't so sensitive about Heath Ledger's death), I really like your plotline. Since it's a Bats movie, I've been telling my inner feminist to shut up, considering Nolan just about ERASED Babs from his canon. And Hel would be a complicated addition.

[rann.livejournal.com]

It's not so much the public at large as it is Christopher Nolan and Christian Bale, both of whom were rather fond of him and thought the world of his performance, and both of whom have said they won't work on a Batman movie where they recast the Joker.

And I'm sure a bunch of people will step in to say that the franchise could live on without them. Much like a human being can live on one kidney.

[disturbed-muse.livejournal.com]

Fanboys all over the world will dissect whoever's chosen to replace Ledger. I'd figure the next generation won't as much.

Although, is Bats' movie even being written yet? I don't think they've announced anything.

[22by7.livejournal.com]

i've wanted Penguin and Catwoman or Penguin and Huntress as villains/anti-heroes in the next one, with Babs firmly on the 'good side'. they really will need to come up with something that will top TDK, cause they painted themselves into a corner with their own stubbornness.

but most importantly i want them to pay some attention to Bruce/Batman himself because in the two movies so far he's been a little... slight as far as presence goes. not sure how much of that is Bale's fault.

but damn, your idea is great.