On Robin

[seriousfic]

It's funny that Batman is usually conceived of as, if not expressly celibate, then emotionally closed-off to love. There's Selina Kyle and Talia, but they're as much defined by the reasons they can't be with him as they are the reasons they "belong" with him. Other love interests, your Vicki Vales and Vesper Fairchilds, tend to fall to the wayside as canon marches on. In any case, there seems to be little interest in developing a relationship in the same way that, say, people would like Peter and Mary-Jane to get together. For plot purposes, Bruce Wayne is seemingly asexual.

It doesn't help that in the prevailing Nolanverse interpretation, his decidedly weak love interest is Katie Holmes, who seems to exist solely to berate Bruce for failing to live up to her arbitrary standards. Makes it a real shame that Halle Berry made Catwoman toxic for the foreseeable futures. *fingers crossed for Batman 3*

In the place of the usual romantic partnering, Batman has Robin. I'm not talking about slash, I'm talking about canon. As the famous phrase does, "Batman needs a Robin." Robin tends to occupy a netherspace between son and partner, like a much healthier H.W. to Daniel relationship in There Will Be Blood. Robin is described as the person who represents hope and light to Batman, as the one who understands him, as the one who highlights positive qualities and downplays negative ones. In short, he could occupy the same "space" as a traditional romantic interest.

Think of it like Nick Angel and Danny Butterman in Hot Fuzz.

So in placing this much importance on the sidekick, does any woman in Bruce's life get shortchanged. Will it never be "Batman & Catwoman" the way it is "Batman & Robin"?

And if you've gone this far without putting on your slash-goggles, thanks. Now... there are some who would read homophobia into someone who dislikes the character of Robin. By definition, Robin is an adolescent character. His age is given as anywhere from sixteen to eight years old. His defining characteristic, across all incarnations, is his youth. Without that, those shorts would look even more silly. Now in recent years (for a broad definition of recent), some of the Robins have matured. Dick Grayson went from Boy Wonder to Teen Wonder to Nightwing, construed as a young man in his early twenties. Jason Todd came back as a young adult too, making it really weird when 1. His guest appearance in Teen Titans had him putting back on his old costume, hot-pants included. and 2. when slashbunny Judd Winick wrote Batman and Red Hood so that their past relationship could be construed as a sexual one... ignoring the fact that their past relationship occurred when Jason Todd was unable to consent!

So, Batman/Robin is chan, unless you go into all sorts of convulsions to find either an above-age Robin or an underage Batman. And yet there's this meme which says if you don't like Robin, and by extension his possible relationship with Batman, you're a homophobe. To put it in fandom terms, people who don't like chan are being told they don't like slash.

The most commonly accepted meaning of slash would be a homosexual relationship, specifically male/male. Alternate definitions, such as *any* ship and any non-canon ship, tend to fall by the wayside for being too damned confusing. Now, male-male pedophilia is no more about homosexuality than male-female rape is about heterosexuality. But by referring to chan as slash, there's an automatic linguistic conflation between homosexuality and pedophilia.

It's the old saw of all homosexuals being pedophiles. We may laugh at this now, when we see old public service announcements about how you shouldn't get into cars with homosexuals, but if you think this isn't damaging, ask yourself why the Boy Scouts won't let gay men be troop leaders.

Given that I think fandom as a whole wants to be sensitive to these issues, wants to be (if not politically correct, then at least) politically savvy, I don't think it's too much to ask that we think about the words we use and the stereotypes we perpetrate... even when we do something as simple as label a fic. Someone who objected to a romantic relationship between Batman/Robin would not be a homophobe, he'd be someone who dislikes pedophilia. Big. Difference.

Comments

[angel-gidget.livejournal.com]

Robin is described as the person who represents hope and light to Batman, as the one who understands him, as the one who highlights positive qualities and downplays negative ones. In short, he could occupy the same "space" as a traditional romantic interest.

This has occurred to me a time or two (speaking as someone who doesn't even own a pair of slash-goggles). I'm amused by the idea of all the debutantes who try to sway Bruce Wane, domesticate him if you will, only to realize (if they're smart) that in many ways Bruce is already settled down. He has daily (if extravagant and rigorous) routines and he's been raising kids for over ten years now. Bruce may feel the desire to pursue romantic love like any other man, but he does strike me as someone capable of becoming a "confirmed bachelor." He already has a family in the form of Dick, Tim, and Alfred. That's all he really needs.

The dynamic doesn't change too much even if you're looking at it solely from a caped identity perspective. Batman was not created to be anyone's boyfriend. Or friend. Or casual acquaintance. The fact that he became Robin's friend, partner, and father-figure is more emotional fulfillment that either could ever have planned on.

Regardless, there is still that niggling wonder... will Bruce actually find a woman who can withstand the test of both real and comics time? For some while, my money was on Catwoman, but the powers that be seem to have taken their relationship in the friendship direction for now. As of this moment, my eyes are on Zatanna. I don't expect her to last, mind you, but I hope it will be interesting. I gotta agree with you though, that Vicki, Vesper, and Rachel all strike me as terribly transitory. Though I think my favorite of this type of Bruce love-interest would probably be Chase Merridian.

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

But one point that needs refining is that it's possible to be a fan of Batman/Robin, with Robin as underage, without being a fan of pedophilia as a RL phenomenon.

Well, I'm not saying we need to call it ch-this-is-evil-and-I'm-a-bad-person-for-getting-off-on-it-an, but it's the difference between having an interracial kink and calling it miscenegation. As the old pornish_pixies debacle proved, words have power.

is that the kind of thing that *doesn't* happen very often in Batman/Robin fic?

I don't think so. In theory, there seems to be a lot of "Batman is so fucked in the head that he would enter into a relationship with an underage boy" (of course, these are the same people who despise it when Frank Miller writes a fucked in the head Batman, so YMMV), but in practice, it's mostly the same squee and smut as any pairing. Shame, as there's probably a really evil fic in there about Batman molesting his wards, the Batfamily being aware of it and condoning/encouraging it, the superhero community finding out, et al...

But then, I know a guy who wrote a story about a Robin who'd been molested and has his life completely messed up by it, and one of the comments was "SQUEEEE!"

[ladyoneill.livejournal.com]

Not that I'm a fan of Batman/Robin in any incarnation, but I'd categorize Tim as at least seventeen now if not older and the legal age in New Jersey, where fictional Gotham is set, is sixteen. Whether or not this covers homosexual relationships, I don't know.

I totally agree with your argument that there's a difference between homosexuality and pedophilia and we need to be careful of our wording, but once any Robin hits sixteen I don't see a relationship with another man as chan, which isn't my thing either though my favorite DC pairing is Tim/Dick, just not thirteen year old Tim. *g*

[parsimonia.livejournal.com]

I've always found it interesting that there's one romantic possibility for Batman that's barely been explored: Bruce Wayne/Barbara Gordon. The Animated Series hinted at it, and it was a sort of behind-the-scenes thing. Yes, as Batgirl she's almost always a romantic possibility for Robin, or can fulfill the role of The Chick (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChick) if need be. But considering that she's usually depicted as being older than Robin, and can safely know and be trusted with both Bruce's identity, I find it interesting that it hasn't been explored more often.

(There's also the possibility of Cass/Bruce, but that would be so incredibly unhealthy, I don't even want to think about it. At least Robin can read about the dangers of messed-up or abusive relationships if he needed to.)

Robin is described as the person who represents hope and light to Batman, as the one who understands him, as the one who highlights positive qualities and downplays negative ones. In short, he could occupy the same "space" as a traditional romantic interest.

I think it's also helpful in terms of storytelling to have a non-romantic partner filling that space. If Bruce Wayne were married or be in a long-term committed relationship, it could regularly bring about change. Would he and his wife want kids? Would she have extended family or maybe kids of her own already? How would the relationship be affected when we delve into one of those Batman's-so-stressed-he-hasn't-sleep-in-a-week-and-hasn't-shaved-and-Gotham-and/or-the-world's-going-to-hell larger story-arcs.

Most women in the their right mind would leave a man that's that self-destructive. And if that happened, what about the kids if they have them? But with Alfred, Dick, and Tim...it's all kinds of parent-child-brother dynamics. They can have the occasional distance without it being a huge problem, but they will always go back to each other when needed. Romantic relationships tend not to work that way very often (especially not in fiction).

but if you think this isn't damaging, ask yourself why the Boy Scouts won't let gay men be troop leaders.

I'd never heard of that before. That is really sad.

[glemsydoodles.livejournal.com]

For plot purposes, Bruce Wayne is seemingly asexual.

There's an important distinction between asexual and aromantic (or possibly just one that only I care about). I can certainly see Bruce having sexual relationships if need be, and much more easily than he commits to a romantic relationship (especially as Matches, and hasn't that been covered plenty in fic?). I'd think it's that emotional closeness that he's more afraid of/unwilling to take away his efforts from the Mission to work out.

In general I prefer canon that makes no explicit statement on, but allows room for, certain such relationships. On the other hand, as important as the role of Robin in general and of Jason currently is to Bruce, a canonical sexual relationship doesn't seem right. It ought to affect him much, much more obviously-- in this case it couldn't just be tossed aside as an unmentioned possibility.

(I wonder for what class I could possibly manage to turn in a paper on the etymology of the term "slash".)

[museofspeed.livejournal.com]

I'm not a fan of Batman/Robin for the most part, but I would like to point out that Tim Drake is now eighteen, and therefore a relationship with Bruce Wayne would not be illegal.

Of course, the age difference is still a little big, and there's the father-son thing, and...no. Just, no.

Of course, I could also be wrong. Casstoons said he was eighteen, and I believed them.

[angel-gidget.livejournal.com]

Couldn't resist the nitpickage, but he's seventeen. He was recently adopted by Bruce, and for that to have legal significance, he must be under eighteen.

Casstoons diverged from cannon as the mockery intensified.

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

Casstoons diverged from cannon as the mockery intensified.

But then, don't we all?

[angel-gidget.livejournal.com]

I tend to take it as a bit of a challenge. I don't like ignoring cannon, even when it's silver lining seems to have run amiss. Rather, I like to search for that lining and expand upon it.

[galamb-borong.livejournal.com]

I've been playing Devil's advocate far too much on your LJ, but here I go yet again...

Adolescence isn't childhood. Ten is almost universally regarded as pedo; twenty almost equally so not, but even then, there are exceptions ( I remember reading about a guy convicted of underage sex with a twenty-year-old girl because the age of consent at that time in France was twenty-one; examples of childhood marriages are numerous ). In most cultures there's a point between ten and twenty when people stop being seen as kids, and start being seen as adults, at least in so much as we think they have the ability to consent. In Russia it's 14; on Livejournal it's 18.

By the same token, not every man who's been attracted to a 13-year old girl is a pedophile, even if it would be wrong to act on those feelings. Pedophilia is usually defined as an orientation towards pre-pubescents; ephebephelia towards adolescents, though once secondary sexual characteristics arrive the difference between adolescents and adults ( in the eyes of the culture, the law, and people's natural inclinations ) is very vague.

For the record, I rarely find anyone under thirty hot, and my feelings about the Batman/Robin pairing are that it's creepy and wrong because he's his adopted child. ( AU's, on the other hand... )

Of course, I ship Slade/Cass ( Cass is 18 in my universe, Livejournal staff ), so perhaps I'm not one to judge.

Heh. All this reminds of a conversation I had earlier:

Me: "So if I like an older man, I'm looking for a father figure?"

Other guy: "Yes."

Me: "I know a guy who thinks a sixty-year-old woman is hot. Is he looking for mom?"

Other guy: "No, he's looking for his Jungian anima."

Me: *makes expression in icon*

[liliaeth]

I have to agree, and not only would it feel as pedophilia, to me Robin/Batman falls in the same line as Buffy/Giles, Spike/Dawn, Buffy/Xander, Sue/Franklin, Reed/Franklin, ... it isn't just pedophilia, it's incest on top of that. Even when there's no bloodrelationship it just feels to icky.

In Harry Potter fandom I keep seeing people pair up Harry with Snape, Sirius or Remus and it just feels wrong, it becomes even more so when the bond between two characters is a student/teacher or parent/child one.

[museofspeed.livejournal.com]

It said it had been two years since Identity Crisis, when he had been 16? Or is this one of those things where it had been two years, but Timmy's ignored one of those years?

I've mostly given up trying to understand comic book aging.

[angel-gidget.livejournal.com]

Ignoring. Tim's aging, it seems, has been brought to a halt for storyline purposes, so Bruce can be all Daddy Bats around him. In the early Robin OYL issues, Bruce realizes that he's actually starting to think of Tim in terms of family rather than Bat-work, so he's a little more protective of him. This wouldn't make too much sense if Tim were already set to fly the nest.

I'm waiting for someone to bring up college concerning Tim. I don't think he's the kind to go as reluctantly as Dick did, and I don't seem him wanting to drop out. Yet, that would significantly interfere with his Robin duties.

At the rate they're compacting Tim's age, it'll soon seem that he only spent a few months with Young Justice rather than at least a year. Personally, to keep things linear in my brain, I believe he joined YJ when he was 13. Then I'm amused to think how Kon would have felt realizing that he, at 15-16, was taking orders from such a lil' squirt the whole while.

[museofspeed.livejournal.com]

Young Justice was the best week in Tim's life.

Seeing as even Bart was fifteen, or at least fourteen, I think, that'd be particularly amusing. Though since Bart was mentally very young, he wouldn't have cared.

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

I think there's so much resistance to the idea of Batman having a girlfriend, so little interest on the part of either writers or readers in Bruce Wayne's love life (as opposed to, say, Peter/MJ or Dick/Babs), that everyone involved would much rather keep the concept the way it is. As you said, Batman's made it clear many times that he doesn't consider himself the committed relationship type, that that's something he's specifically given up to become the Batman, that in many ways his character at present is inconsistent with romance.

As much as we say we want a lighter, happier Batman, I don't know of many who are ready for a Batman that light and that happy. I think must would rather we get Batman note-perfect before we embark on possibly settling down (and this is speaking as someone who's gotten a little fed up with the constant will-they-or-won't-they? Bruce/Selina dance. All the obstacles thrown in their way are flat and uninteresting because they're never really together in the first place. In Hush they got together and broke up in the same story arc! Ugh!).

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

Keep in mind that chan isn't just the age difference, but the magnification of the power differencial. That seems to be a pretty constant trope across the board. Bruce/Tim is a very different animal, to split hairs, than a twenty-something Dick involved with a barely (il)legal Tim. Tim/Dick is about equality, with any authority differenciating them coming from Tim's respect for Dick.

Bruce is Tim's mentor, father figure, CO... basically his life, up to and including God. I'd argue that the extreme age differencial between him and Tim turns Bruce into the dirty old man in that equation. It's the difference between, say, hearing your high school senior daughter is going out with a college freshman and hearing that that same daughter is going out with one of her teachers.

Another thing of interest is that regular slash/femslash/het seems to age up the participants. I've seen a lot of porny Tim/Kon stories with disclaimers to the effect that they're both eighteen. It goes with our TV-fandom thinking of "underage character played by overage actor." Buffy Summers, Clark Kent, River Tam, and so on were all "underage" at one point, but you'd have to be really stringent to define any of their relationships with older men as chan. Whereas in the infamous Snarry fanart at the center of ye olde fandom kerfuffle, Harry was, what, something like eleven despite the fact that the series had progressed to the point where he was seventeen or eighteen at "present"?

So in chan, the age differencial is the point, while everywhere else, it's something to work around.

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

By the same token, not every man who's been attracted to a 13-year old girl is a pedophile, even if it would be wrong to act on those feelings. Pedophilia is usually defined as an orientation towards pre-pubescents; ephebephelia towards adolescents, though once secondary sexual characteristics arrive the difference between adolescents and adults ( in the eyes of the culture, the law, and people's natural inclinations ) is very vague.

Eh. I think that's splitting hairs in the same way people insist "bemused doesn't mean differently-connotated-amused, it means confused!" Maybe so, by the dictionary definition, but on the ground people use pedophile to indicate "creepy person attracted to person under 18" and that's how it's understood 97% of the time.

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

Buffy/Xander?

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

That's go over great with the tabloids.

Bruce: This is Tim. When he was fourteen or so he was my next-door neighbor, who loved spending time with me. After his father died, I adopted him. Now that he's turned 18, he's my gay lover.

Earths 1-51 (52 is Earth-NAMBLA): 0-:

Bruce: WHAT!? He's eighteen!

[museofspeed.livejournal.com]

I said it wouldn't be illegal! It's still wrong in other ways!

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

I'm still in love with the idea of an utterly wrongsauced relationship that the hero finds nothing wrong with.

I... I think this is what a Battlestar Galactica writer feels like all the time.

[galamb-borong.livejournal.com]

While I don't think you're wrong about the general public ( who, after all, don't know about tentacle sex and thus by definition don't count ), it makes a huge difference when it comes to actions and preferences. I'd be willing to say the majority of men ( possibly women too ) have found at least one person under 18 attractive – how much under marks the difference between normalcy and pedophilia. Biology is tricky; it doesn't follow a clockwork schedule, and physical development isn't timed to the point where all we think of is sucking lollipops until we reach the age when we can legally our hands on something else.

Most people, however, can manage their desires within the limits of legality. As an example, I once knew a guy who had a real thing about adolescents but dealt with it by cruising the 18-22 market for younger looking guys.

Even if a guy finds a sixteen-year-old attractive, he can find another outlet – pedophiles find pre-sexual pre-adolescents desirable, and bar the few people who have hormonal problems that make them look like children, there are hardly options for them. That's what really makes pedophiles dangerous: from everything I've read it works like an orientation and can't be changed, only not acted on. It's not like people wake up one day after a life of het- or homosexuality and think it would be fun to rape a five-year-old; this is a life-long problem for those effected. Pedophilia already has its first victim before a pedophile has even acted.

[liliaeth]

Brother/sister, I've always been icked at even the idea of the pairing, because Buffy always treated Xander like her brother. Something that he seemed to accept by the end of s4

[(Anonymous)]

Like when Woody Allen decided he wanted to date his wife's fosterdaughter.

[liliaeth]

uhm, that was me, forgot to log in. :-)