A discussion of Grant Morrison's New X-Men gets out of hand

[seriousfic]

seriousfic(6:01:44 PM): God forbid a plot about seduction feature anyone looking seductive.
aimeeish (6:01:54 PM): I think the only art I liked from that run - Leinil Yu (New X-Men Annual) and Marc Silvestri (Here Comes Tomorrow). And Marc Silvestri drew the FIRST EVAR non-telepathic Emma/Scott kiss.
aimeeish (6:02:27 PM): and it was over jean's grave and that just makes it double awesome.
seriousfic(6:02:48 PM): I am so totally thinking of a fic where Emma has an anniversary picnic with Scott on Jean's grave.
aimeeish (6:02:56 PM): LAWL.
aimeeish (6:03:00 PM): Would it be serious?
seriousfic(6:03:08 PM): It would be Emma.
aimeeish (6:03:12 PM): Heeee
seriousfic(6:03:30 PM): "Look, now you can celebrate our anniversary and Jean's anniversary at the same time!"
seriousfic(6:03:37 PM): "I brought flowers... and wine."

Rereading the Emma Frost series of old, I'm getting more and more tempted to do a fic where Emma switches minds with herself as a teenager. After wrecking appropriate havoc, modern-day Emma heads to New York to mess with the First Class X-Men...

Comments

[distractedone.livejournal.com]

HAHAHA, You made the icon, awesome.

I will get that fic beta'd for you, but my schoolwork is the number one priority. ;D

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

The school year is totally the bane of my betaing process. I should've written more during the summer.

[distractedone.livejournal.com]

You know, maybe I'll print it out and beta it during study hall or something. I'll just have to pile books to the side of the paper, so nobody will see what I'm reading.

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

I think that would be the worst story to be caught betaing. "Hmmm, who is this Emma Frost woman? I'm intrigued by the feelings of inadequacy she expresses toward OH MY GOD WHAT WHAT!?"

[kali921.livejournal.com]

and it was over jean's grave and that just makes it double awesome.

Except for the part where it's creepy and manipulative?

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

Dude, it's Emma. Calling her creepy and manipulative is like calling Gregory House ornery or James Bond slutty. That's what we love about them.

It helps if you don't think of Emma/Scott as EPIC TWUE WUV like Jean/Scott, but as two fucked-up people who like having sex. And sooner or later it's going to get sacrificed on the altar of someone's Silver Age fetish, so I try to enjoy it while I can.

[kali921.livejournal.com]

I've been an X-Men reader for over twenty five years. I'm pretty familiar with Jean/Scott and Emma/Scott and the dynamics thereof, and the thing is that I don't think Scott is a particularly screwed up and twisted person. He's got issues, yes, but he's nowhere near as screwed up as Emma.

That's what we love about them.

You, not me.

If that "sacrificed on the altar of someone's Silver Age fetish" is a dig at Jean fans like me, here is where we sadly must part ways.

If anything, I'm a Jean/Emma/Scott OT3er

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

If that "sacrificed on the altar of someone's Silver Age fetish" is a dig at Jean fans like me, here is where we sadly must part ways.

No, not at all. I wouldn't be as adverse to Jean coming back and Scott getting back together with her... what I'm worried about is someone senselessly ushering Emma out of the way so that Scott can be with Jean in the same way that Peter and MJ were split up, or even how Scott and Madeline Pryor were broken up. And doing it not because it serves the characters or because it makes sense with the plot, but just because Scott and Jean were a couple while the hypothetical author was a kid and the writer doesn't want to acknowledge that they've grown or changed since then, or that any time has passed at all.

In fact, if Jean came back and Scott dropped Emma like a hot potato because she was just providing a convenient warm body while his REAL g/f was out, I think we can agree it would reflect badly on all the characters. But if there was a well-written story with no one being a bad guy, then no matter who ended up with who, I'd be happy and interested in seeing where the plot went.

Re: If anything, I'm a Jean/Emma/Scott OT3er

[kali921.livejournal.com]

No, not at all. I wouldn't be as adverse to Jean coming back and Scott getting back together with her... what I'm worried about is someone senselessly ushering Emma out of the way so that Scott can be with Jean in the same way that Peter and MJ were split up,

...Except that Morrison broke up Jean and Scott in a way disturbingly similar to the way Quesada broke up Peter and MJ?

Re: If anything, I'm a Jean/Emma/Scott OT3er

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

Nothing can ever be as bad as the way Quesada broke up Peter and MJ. At least Scott and Jean were married. And Scott's not living with his aunt. And...

Okay, admittedly, the start of the Emma/Scott relationship falls pretty squarely into Morrison's weaknesses as a writer. Say "Jean and Scott are in a loveless marriage" and you're already on shaky ground, "Scott is tempted by Emma and her psychic affair skillz," even worse. And yes, Morrison was probably more concerned with exploring the ethics of a telepathic affair than in keeping strictly in-character, and yes, Jean Gray's ghost making Scott and Emma make-out on her grave is partly lolarious because of the abject fail.

But since then there'd been a great deal of canon that says they do have feelings for each other and it's not all poorly-written schlock that's better off ignored. Not saying that means Scott/Jean should never be canon again, but if it's "Issue One: Jean comes back. Issue Two: Jean and Scott are snuggling and discussing plans for their second honeymoon," that would not only make Jean and Scott look bad (him for dumping Emma, her for taking him back after he dumps Emma), but it would make Emma look like the morally wronged party and most sympathetic person... probably not what you want.

So when and if Jean comes back, I want a big juicy DRAMA sandwich where the characters still act like reasonable adults instead of overdramatic high-schoolers (also, I want a pony, since I'm wishing for nigh-impossible things). I don't want some retcon where Emma has been evil all along and brain-washed Scott into loving her and once she's out of the picture, Scott and Jean are sunshine and lollidrops again. And I don't want Emma to die just so Jean and Scott can fall into each others' arms (yeah, I know, the irony, right?). I want the characters to have to make the hard choices to resolve a sticky situation with no easy answers. And if I get that, I'll be happy whether Scott ends up with Jean or with Emma or if they all decide they need to take a breather and spend some time being single instead of rushing into anything.

Re: If anything, I'm a Jean/Emma/Scott OT3er

[kali921.livejournal.com]

Sorry, no. Emma and Scott hardly have a healthy relationship - the very foundations of their supposed attraction were viciously manipulated by a bitterly jealous shrew named Emma Frost whose daddy never wubbed her enough and that's her excuse for being a terrible person who was a total shit to Angelica, brutalized her students, and tried to kill the X-Men. Whedon can put the words "I love you" into Emma and Scott's mouth over and over again, and it will never fly because underneath there's just this glaring past of base manipulation. It's one of the most unhealthy relationships I can think of in contemporary mainstream comics. It's empty words on top of a big necrotic pile of emotional manipulation.

Gen X Emma was awesome. But that was all apparently retconned away because the Emma that used to more than "prime bitch" as her personality has been retconned into a base stereotype of selfish, shallow, and grasping woman. It particularly rankles because Emma is such a shit to other woman, and she's so toxic to everyone around her except Scott.

And I think I'll bow out. Because you can type six paragraphs at me about how adult and cool Emma is, but she epitomizes a horrible anti-feminist stereotype in comics in a zillion ways, and Marvel expects us to like her as a character. Sorry. No.

Re: If anything, I'm a Jean/Emma/Scott OT3er

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

So... we can't just agree to disagree?

Re: If anything, I'm a Jean/Emma/Scott OT3er

[kali921.livejournal.com]

Sure we can agree to disagree, but I frankly get uncomfortable with people that declare unconditional love for Emma, because from a feminist perspective she's so problematic on so many levels. She's exactly the kind of woman that I don't want to see in comics as a character that's supposed to be a laudable woman.

Re: If anything, I'm a Jean/Emma/Scott OT3er

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

Unconditional love? Laudable woman? Nah. She's messed up, makes a lot of bad choices, and I wouldn't want to be in the same room with her in real life, but to me, she's fun to read about.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

Sometimes Quietly's art was gorgeous -- unfortunately, it would be right next to something hideously *bad*.

Silvestri managed to make Evil!Hank look interesting and terrifying in every panel, which given that he was a giant fluffy white *cat*, was quite an accomplishment.

And I finally figured out what pisses me off about Morrison's writing when flipping through his run on SUPERMAN. He skips *plot* development in favor of fight scenes; you can see the skeleton of the plot, but he jumps from A to C because there aren't any *explosions* in B, even though you need scene B for the story to make sense...

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

Plus, Morrison has too much of a hard-on about "cool ideas" to figure out a way to put them into context a lot of the time. Like, ruby quartz contact lenses. Okay, that's nice. How does Scott put them in?

[distractedone.livejournal.com]

How does Scott put them in?

WOW! Dude! I never even thought about that.

[bariman1987.livejournal.com]

Ruby-quartz contacts are canon somewhere? Huh.

I've been thinking about contacts for Scott for a while. I figure he'd have to go outside and look up in the sky to put them in. He's immune to his own power, so he could stick his finger over his eye and put the contact in.

Of course, he's still putting a piece of rock in his eye, so yeah. Really cool concept on paper, kind of impractical to carry out.